K-D is down, during which I find an essay by Mary Borsellino....

[mechtild]

It looks like K-D is down. I checked the alternate "Frodo's Harem on LJ" site, but didn't see any new entries…. My apologies to you who have PM'd me, since I can't open them. Link to Harem LJ site, in case you have lost it:

http://www.livejournal.com/community/frodos_harem/

Because I can't bear to write an entry without using an image, I decided to post this one I made to include in a comment for my recent "Sam/Frodo hug" screencap entry:


~ In which Rosie demonstrates why she wins fanfic's "good sport" award...





Rosie can afford to be gracious since she is permitted sixty-two years of "blissful" (if "simple and rustic" - Letters #131) married life with Sam, along with thirteen lovely children who will grow up to hand on Frodo’s version of the “Great Tale.”

Because I am an anal-retentive type I had to look for the "bliss" quote above, in order to cite it. I knew it was in the HoME, with the unpublished Epilogues. Dang! I didn't have that volume! Armed with a few keywords, I tried Googling up the quotation....

I didn't find what I was looking for, but I found something else. An essay. A really, really good essay. An essay on the character of Rosie:

Expecting You Since the Spring: Examining Rosie Cotton, by Mary Borsellino:

http://www.rosiesamfrodo.com/spring/

I recognized the name at once and started reading. She was "famous" in the world of Frodo fanfic, I knew. I first had heard of her when I was brand new to fanfics, looking for love stories starring Frodo. (I was only dimly aware of slash then; I meant, Frodo in love with women.) My beta recommended a few, including Ariel and Aratlithiel’s highly enjoyable Autumn’s Requiem. Although I could appreciate that it was very well-done, I hadn’t liked the idea of Frodo bedding Sam’s girl, as though Frodo were exercising a hobbitty droit du siegneur). I read it again recently and thought the authors made the encounter quite plausible. Ah, the difference a year of fanfic reading can make.

When my beta told me about Mary Borsellino’s story, Pretty Good Year, I said, “A post-Quest threesome? No way!" So, I went back to non-Rosie het fic, and slash that kept Sam and Frodo’s relationship out of the one Sam had with Rosie.

Since then, I've learned of more "threesome" stories, het and slash. I still have not read any of them. Before, I was unwilling; now, I haven't the time to read everything I'd like. Not all at once, anyway. There is a very well-known fic, for instance, very highly recommended, that people often categorize as a "threesome," although it sounds like regular slash to me. Frodo beds Rosie in it, but, from what I understand it is only to get Rosie with child, as a sort of gift to Sam, not out of any affection towards her. Frodo having sex with Rosie in this one sounds like a matter of 'desperate measures,' not an exercise in mutual pleasure or consolation. This all sounds like rather dismal behaviour of Rosie and Frodo’s part. When I do read this story, I hope it comes off differently. Another sort of fic billed as a "threesome" sounds more like S/R, F/R. Post-Quest Frodo trysts with Rosie, but unbeknownst to Sam. Again, this is a scenario I find compromising to the characters involved. I am such an old-fashioned romantic, it is difficult for me to take seriously the loves of characters who are willing to be unfaithful with a third party, no matter what the reasons. Not in Tolkien’s world, anyway. Even in ours it would be difficult.

Now, before anyone writes me a heated comment about that, please know that my feelings about reading fics have changed since then. I have ... “lightened up”. Not totally, but a lot. Whereas I used to bridle at any non-spoofy fic straying notably from canon (especially if its author insisted it didn't! *grrr*), these days I am willing to see such fics as creative and interesting. I now think that using Tolkien's subcreation to explore an author's own ideas and themes can be acceptable, even good. Why, recently I have recommended stories that would make Tolkien spew his Elevenses if he saw what they had done with his subcreation! But I have found these stories wonderfully creative, and surprisingly, satisfyingly steeped in Tolkien's world even as they use that world as a springboard to explore worlds of their own.

Back to Mary Borsellino, having read her excellent essay, I confess I am quite looking forward to reading her fic. I love informed, insightful, creative thinking, set forth in good writing. Her essay is all that. If she can write such an essay, how could her fic be anything but well-written?

I still may end up hating what she does to the characters, but I am guessing I will enjoy watching her do it. *big grin*

~ Mechtild

Comments

[ms-banazira.livejournal.com]

I noticed that KD is down too. Every time it happens I worry that it, and all the good times we've had there and hoped to have, are gone forever. I hope Moggy just forgot to pay the bill again!

I read Ms. Borsellino's essay some time ago, and look forward to reading it again.

But I prefer my Frodo, erm, un-touched. ;-) There was a time when I'd read slash, but I just can't go there anymore; it twists two characters I love too much. I prefer to think of my Frodo as somewhat 'elvish,' which in my book means spiritual, and above the ordinary fleshly concerns of ordinary hobbits.

I've read, and would recommend "Following the Other Wizard" by JoDancingTree, and one by Sally Gardens which I can't recall the name of. Both are set after the quest and depict Frodo, Sam and Rosie in the domestic setting to some extent. (But there's no sex in either story. Just a personal preference of mine.

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I noticed that KD is down too. Every time it happens I worry that it, and all the good times we've had there and hoped to have, are gone forever. I hope Moggy just forgot to pay the bill again!

I read Ms. Borsellino's essay some time ago, and look forward to reading it again.

But I prefer my Frodo, erm, un-touched. ;-) There was a time when I'd read slash, but I just can't go there anymore; it twists two characters I love too much. I prefer to think of my Frodo as somewhat 'elvish,' which in my book means spiritual, and above the ordinary fleshly concerns of ordinary hobbits.

I've read, and would recommend "Following the Other Wizard" by JoDancingTree, and one by Sally Gardens which I can't recall the name of. Both are set after the quest and depict Frodo, Sam and Rosie in the domestic setting to some extent. (But there's no sex in either story. Just a personal preference of mine. <size=1>I'm not afraid of sex; I just know how it's done, and prefer to be a first-hand participant I guess!</size>) ;-)

[ms-banazira.livejournal.com]

OK, how do you do that eeny-weeney little text trick?? I hate HTML markup!

[elasg.livejournal.com]

and one by Sally Gardens which I can't recall the name of.

That's 'The Road Ahead' and I can VERY highly recommend it. I have it listed on my recommendations page because I adore it too. It's one of those stories that I hope will ever be somewhere on the internet or on my shelf. I love it that much.

An interesting discussion, Mechtild. I know many people think of me as not very adventureous when it comes to reading fic, but I've been reading it for so long, I have really gotten to the point of knowing how I react to certain scenarios. Like Ms_banazira says, I prefer not to go there anymore. I am not saying another person's take might not work for me, but I literally have seen nearly everything and if the story involves removing women from the picture or caricturing them, I balk. I feel like I am being dumped on and just don't like those stories. We get that enough from our society.

I really think I have a problem with any fic that shoves Rosie out of the road or belittles her right to be Sam's wife because I'm such a feminist. It is respect for her that made me initially hesitate to write Autumn's Requiem, but the one twist of presenting it as her thinking Sam not interested anymore made me much more OK with it.

I've not read Ms. Borsellino's essay and only part of her fic. She's a good writer, but I wasn't buying it. You'll see why when you read it - though you will probably enjoy the story.

*Back to writing*

[mariole.livejournal.com]

I read PGY ages ago and dabbed tissues all through it. Some of these little vignettes are very moving. I think you'll enjoy it. I also think you'll enjoy the unnamed fic you mention. It's got a terrific story and great Rosie, although it is certainly overall F/S. Cheers!

[lame-pegasus.livejournal.com]

*smiles*

Of course I know that excellent essay (and though I don't wholly agree with everything said in it), I totally love her way to see Rosie who is painfully often reduced to a mere, cheap (and not really appreciated) substitute for a lost Frodo, Sam's only "twu wuv". And Pretty Good Year was my very first threesome and my nearly first slash, and though I had great difficulties witth both, Mary's way of telling this wonderful tale captured me totally... it made me smile, laugh, weep, grin... and adore her insight and wisdom.

I told my hubby about it, again and again, repeatedly lamenting the fact that it didn't exist in a german version. One evening he gazed at me, slightly unnerved, and said: "Well then... ask her if you may translate it, hm?" Long story short: I did ask her and received an enormously friendly, enthusiastic reply only six hours later... and the rest is history, so to speak. PGY was the very first ff-tale I ever translated, and the very first ff I ever wrote myself was written for Mary Borsellino's universe (the first good one, too - which was my second one, A Light in the Window).I searched for an opportunity to post it and my husband created the layout of Cuthalions Bogen for me... which started my site and my whole ff-career and led to meanwhile 41 translated authors, 104 stories and more than 20.000 readers. And PGY is still the download-favorite of my visitors (though BIGS is slowly catching up... *smiles*)

I may not really agree with the whole threesome-concept (I would kill my husband if he tried to do anything like this!), but PGY will always have a special place in my heart - same as its author who is a fabulous, friendly, wonderful person.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

Honey, I know you dislike Frodo being dragged off into love affairs in stories and you aren't alone. Tolkien wrote him as a bachelor, a seemingly contented bachelor. It certainly seems the right thing to leave well enough alone. Obviously, though, I haven't done that. P.S. To make small text use this code:

White Gull, I don't think Rose is a goddess, either, but perhaps I misread Ms. Borsellino in her essay. I thought she was speaking of what she thought were the archetypes or mythic underpinnings of the Rosie and other female characters in LotR. I thought her ideas were extrememly interesting, but I always enjoy literary criticism that looks at the archetypes and mythic themes that run beneath a work. The S/F, S/R story was yours, yes. I didn't name it because a) I haven't read it so don't feel qualified to bandy its name around and b) because I might have misunderstood the scenario. Would it be true that Sam never knows that Rosie and Frodo are having an affair while all three are living together at Bag End? Or does Sam find out at some point and acquiesce.? Knowing you don't write slash, I never supposed you ended up with a S/F/R set-up.

I literally have seen nearly everything and if the story involves removing women from the picture or caricturing them, I balk. I feel like I am being dumped on and just don't like those stories. We get that enough from our society.

I agree with you, Ariel, and those who have been unhappy to read the character of Rose dumped on in fic (like Belegcuthalion). I have read ones in which she is a scheming, skirt-flouncing little tart, an amenable cipher, and a scold. I don't think Tolkien intended any of these for the wife of Sam and the mother of all those children. She is often set up as a "straw woman", to show the reader how inadequate she is to be the mate of Sam.

As for the threesome idea, well, I consider it AU. I think I made that clear. However, I no longer am against the notion of writers playing with scenarios to see what they can do with them, even though they are AU. So, yes, Belegcuthalion, I intend to read Borsellino's fic. There is AU, and there is AU. I'd be much less offended by a story in which the three are canon-recognizable, even though they are having a bi-sexual menage a trois, than one in which Frodo is a heterosexual cad and seducer of local lasses (no, I haven't read that one yet, but I'll bet it's out there). As long as they don't insist their AU take is faithful to the text! But, you translated Pretty Good Year? You are a wonderful resource to German language-speakers. I wonder, do fanfics written in other languages get translated into English?

Mariole, I will need tissues for PGY? It's a sad one, that one? Oh, goody! I hear the mostly-slash S/R/F one is an extreme-tissue provoker. I will be interested how she manages to write a good Rose, considering what Rose is made to put up with. (Well, I certainly would never put up with it.)

[lame-pegasus.livejournal.com]

Yes, I translated it (which was quite a challenge at that time, or my english was not so good as it is today). And it still contains some of the best fanfiction scenes I ever read. The chapter Dirty Waters is so painful and moving (and the most bitter essence of post-quest-Frodo I ever read) that I will always adore it, and Perfectly well (some chapters later) contains some of the most spooky and frightening moments I've ever read.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

Anyway, if you ever do read it, let me know what you think, good or ill.

But, of course! Your description of the arc of the story shows a vast reach. I knew you had used Autumn's Requiem as a springboard. How you are going to make Sam "ok" with this without making him seem a sap, only too happy to be a cuckold if it make Master happy, I will be happy to see. It all sounds like a more sophisticated tale than is usual, which have fewer complications, typically. It might be the nature of a long-running threesome to bring out the capacity of characters to make make the best of things, things that get messy, which happens a lot in real life.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

I am a slow reader. There is no fic I can read in a night. If I am to read with attention and expression, I only can read as fast as I can talk. When I read, I am almost saying the text outloud, but in my mind. I have tried doing it more quickly, but I haven't the facility. I just end up having to re-read.

[ellinestel.livejournal.com]

((((Mechtild))) I love both the PGY and the unnamed fic. But before you start reading, - please, go and buy a hundred boxes of tissues, no less. These two threesomes are very different from each other, in a way, but they are absolutely heartwrenching. I can't say which Rosie is my favourite - they both reach out to the reader.

I think I need to reread PGY. The last line of the main series of vignette kills me every time.

Oh, yes, and I'm back online! :)

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

Ellin, hi! My, you have been busy. You have barely posted at all (on your LJ, where you periodically announce you still are alive, or in the Harem, which is vacationing *smile*). But you sound well, just busy.

When you mention the "unnamed fic" do you mean the one in which Frodo gets Rosie with child in order to give a baby to Sam, or the one in which Rosie is married to Sam but having an affair with Frodo? I've heard they all are tear-jerkers.

[ellinestel.livejournal.com]

I meant the first one/ :) As to the second, I'm afraid I've missed it, I'll have to check that i've read it.

I am busy, but I'll try to come back as soon as I'm able. ((((((((((Hugs)))))))))))

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

I'm glad to hear that, Ellin Estel. The second fic is White Gull's, Autumn's Gift. The first one, if I have got the story correct, is Elenya's All That I Had. That's just to make sure we know what the "unnamed fics" were. I hadn't wanted to name them because I would be talking about, and maybe making presumptions about fics I had not read.