Fearturing Bandwench's Frodo manip ~ "Frodo: Study in Blue" (Adult)....

[mechtild]

Warning: Adult content in discussion.

Hello, fans of Frodo-erotica in its visual forms!

I just wanted to alert you to a Frodo manip made by a renowned maker of erotic Elijah Wood manips, bandwench. She just finished and posted it to her LJ.

Bandwench's LJ is typically friends-locked, but she has unlocked this entry only (at my urging), so that folks who browse here but aren't on her f-list will be able to see it, if they wish to. Some of you, I know, are friends of both this journal and hers, and you will already have seen it, but more of you are not.


Here's a detail from Bandwench's new manip, Frodo: Study in Blue:





Note: If you follow the link to her LJ, and if you enjoy her work, express your appreciation to the artist. Don't tell me; I'm just the bulletin board. Thanks! :)


About bandwench's new manip....

I already gushed to Bandwench in an e-mail, but I just love this manip (which is why I am featuring it)! It is not at all tasteless or pornish, even if Frodo is nude, and even though he is depicted as partially aroused (sexually). The manip was made from photographic elements, yet it has more the quality of a painting for me, my favourite medium for Frodo manips.

To view the whole image, full-sized, click HERE, which will take you to her LJ entry.

Warning: NC-17 for displayed genitals, in a state of partial arousal. (Not truly lascivious, however, IMO.)

~*~

After seeing the "sneak preview" of it, I told Bandwench something like this....

The image reminds me of the waking of the Eldar at the dawning of Middle-earth, except that Frodo's a hobbit, not an Elf (not that he isn't more beautiful than any Elf that every drew breath).

The background is wonderfully chosen, like a primeval woods and water, hushed, serene, and dimly-lit. You could have left it looking like a recognizable place, but your blue wash has given it an other-worldly look, perfect for something set in the mists of M-E. If it doesn't recall the waking of the Eldar under the first stars, rising naked from the newly-created earth, it also recalls to me newly-created Adam from the ancient biblical narrative, a sign of what all of us once were: pure and fresh and beautiful and without blemish.

As for the figure of Frodo, the body you used for him is just about perfect, in terms of what Frodo might plausibly look like under his clothes -- at least most fanfic Frodos, who tend not to have the Cirith Ungol tummy, LOL. The pose is perfect, too. Rising out of the water (like Botticelli's Venus rising from the Sea?) he is strong, but lithe and graceful. He seems relaxed, yet poised for movement at the same time, like a faun who has just stepped into a quiet drinking place. The face you chose fits into the compostion gorgeously.

I even love the skin. I love the droplets of water; did you put them there? Most Frodo manips have been air-brushed to bland perfection, but you have left in all the surface detail. I don't know if I am imagining it, but it's almost as though I can see the delicate network of veins and capillaries trhough the surface of his skin.

It strikes me as a visual expression of what Gandalf noted in Frodo, while he was recovering from the wound of the Morgul blade: there was about Frodo a "transparency".

About finding the work of bandwench....

I only just found Bandwench's amazing place a few days ago, having been directed there by mews.

I was scrolling down my f-list when I saw an entry showing off a very saucy animated icon made from a manip of a naked Elijah Wood. It was so well-done, I commented on it to Mews in her journal.

Mews gave me a link to Bandwench's website (which is public), Bandwench Dreams in Ink. There, Bandwench is in the midst of setting up the site to display her photomanips of Elijah Wood, and to archive her fic (slash and het, all starring Elijah Wood).

So far, Bandwench has loaded her "Tame" and "Tempting" EW manip galleries. If you take a peek in these, you will wonder where the HECK she is going to go with her "Torrid" gallery, yet to come (no pun intended).

Start with "Tame" -- because all of them are not that tame. These may be as far as you want to go, seeing EW portrayed in manips as himself. Go to that gallery, too, because "Prince Elijah" is in it, a manip of EW in costume, with long hair that looks like a painting. It is a manip to die for. There are four different versions of it. Maybe I'll have to do a separate post to feature them. *sigh*

The website notes that Bandwench is working on an "Het" and "Slash" gallery of EW photomanip images, too. (This means that, unlike the "Torrid" manips, which are solo, these manips would feature EW with a partner.)

About Bandwench's "Torrid" EW:

Even though I am not an Elijah Wood swooner, I do think he's a lovely man, and am forever grateful that he played Frodo Baggins so well in the LotR films. Furthermore, I can never resist racy material, written or visual, so, of course, I checked these out, once I had friended Bandwench's LJ, on which many of these already appear in individual entries.

This is just a note of warning for those of you who have never seen real porn*, and don't wish to: you may not wish to see these.

*By "real porn", I mean pictures in which the subject is not only fully naked, but sexually aroused, in frankly sexual situations (including, in some cases, climaxing). No sense beating about the bush.

But if you do look at her website and browse only what's in "Tame" and "Tempting", you still will see the level of excellence Bandwench has achieved in her photo-manipping craft. In many of her pieces, I really cannot tell that they are not actual photos; they are seamless. I don't like everything in the galleries, but it is a matter of taste, not lack of artistry.

There is no denying the craft of this artist, even though the level of craft varies as she has learned more over time. She told me that some of the manips are examples from her earliest days and don't show the skill she acquired later, but she hasn't gone back and "tidied" them (as I have done on several of mine, for new LJ entries). I noted that some of her early, less perfect manips are among her most charming.

I asked her how she had learned manipping so well and how long she had been doing it. She says she is self-trained (!!!), although a few other manippers have been willing to trade "secrets". She has been doing manips for a year and a half. She loves the art form (yes, "ART" form), and is not happy when people scoff at the idea that photo manipulation is an art form. She has painted and drawn for years, she says, and many of the same techniques and rules apply, no matter whether one's medium is the finest oil paint or colored pixels.

Again, Bandwench's explicitly sexual manips (in her "Torrid" gallery) definitely may not be everyone's cup of tea, but no one is compelled to look at highly-rated art sites, just as they are not compelled to read highly-rated fanfic. I say this so that people from here won't go peeking in there, and then get hysterical, after they've been warned.

~*~

I wrote last year about the right-and-wrong of using a celebrity's face for photomanips, even if they are shown only in select circles, since I was mulling over whether to post a Frodo "Art Travesty" manip I had made at that time, which partially revealed the source-model's genitals, sexual situation clearly implied.

I still am of two minds about it.

I suppose it depends on the spirit in which they were intended, for starters. Clearly, having read through Bandwench's LJ, she is an EW fan who is smart, upfront and good-humoured about her love of the actor, and of smut, and makes clear in every entry that these are the products of craft and fantasy. I think that's a lot better than writing stories or making images which explicitly or implicitly purport to reveal the "real truth" about EW's personal life -- if only EW were enlightened enough to know it -- when they are not.

The other major issue is how the celebrity feels about it. Frodo is imaginary and cannot be consulted, which is why I drew the line at presenting him in a compromising manip (fondling himself in front of all and sundry, when he ought to have been left to do this in private).

EW can, hypothetically, have something to say about it.

I doubt that EW has seen these manips, but I know that although he handled it with grace, he didn't look pleased at a press conference during the filming of Everything is Illuminated, receiving a sheaf of very soft-core manips of him and Sean Astin depicted as slash Frodo and Sam. But I'd bet that if EW saw these, he'd be secretly flattered, if not astonished.

"That's what they think I've got in my jeans?!? Holey-jamoley!!!"

Lurking on the EW thread at K-D, I think my impression of the adult Elijah Wood is that he's a good-natured, easy-going man who is a very good sport, but who might get tired of being thought pretty and precious and a little effeminate. So, I'm guessing, while he might roll his eyes at images of himself as Frodo manipped into pastel, air-brushed, soft-focus, discreet-but-nude embraces with Sam -- like slash versions of Hallmark greeting cards -- he'd respond differently if he stumbled onto Bandwench's porn shots.

If he were by himself, I think he'd first explode into a fit of laughter (for many of her filthiest manips are also witty), then stop and stare in open-mouthed admiration at the sight of himself revealed as, 'Elijah Wood: Porn Star'.

"Sh*t!" he'd probably say in wistful wonderment, "I wish!

~ Mechtild

Comments

[mews1945.livejournal.com]

Ilove BW's manips, most of them, and enjoy visiting her site. She's made some beautiful pieces. Have you seen the Masked Elijah she did for a Mardi Gras manip about a year ago? It's gorgeous.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

Thank you, Mews, for directing me to her site. Almost more than her site, I enjoyed her LJ. Her writing is witty, insightful and full of joie de vivre when she is on a roll. And when she is being reflective, it's more insightful and probing, leading me to examine my own inner life. I just read through her journal yesterday, along with loads of great comments. EW manips are not really my cup of tea, unless I think of him as a model, and not as him being portrayed himself -- as a real person. But what she does with him as a "model" is often astounding. There is no getting around it, he has a fabulous face.

Some of her pictures made me swoony, but, since "swoon" definitely taps into each viewer's own personal fantasies and inclinations about sexual intimacy and love, the ones that most touched me were the ones that were the least kinky and the least "in my face."

I loved some of the ones of early EW in the "Tempting" and "Tame" gallery, which were plenty racy for me; ones in which his facial expression was sweet, vulnerable, or sleepy-eyed. But, that's me, I'm a fairly romantic person, however smutty, still fondest of the old, unadorned, passionate, real, I-Thou when it comes to erotica, visual or written. I love what is saucy, erotica with wit and silliness, but I find that more fun than erotic.

Of her "Torrid"s, I did like some of them very much, because of the beauty of the pose, or the loveliness of the model's body, the tilt of a hand, or, frankly, the beauty of a model's genitals or pubic hair (LOVE good pubic hair). But, to appreciate the manips fully, I usually needed to forget the face was EW's. But, that's me. Not an EW swooner, and still a little "funny" about looking at his head on the bodies of people posing for porn. Still, EVEN IF ONLY TO LOOK AT THE EXCELLENCE OF THE MANIPPING!!!!!!! - I wouldn't have missed any of Bandwench's work.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

Eee gad, Mews. You ask me one simply question and I blab for paragraphs and never do answer the question.

Have you seen the Masked Elijah she did for a Mardi Gras manip about a year ago?

The only manip I saw in her site of EW wearing a mask was in her "Tame" section. It's red-sequined. Otherwise he's wearing an open white shirt (like an 18th century shirt), a cross on a chain and black pants. If that's the one you mean, while it was an attractive image, since his face does not show, it was not a favourite. Is there another mask manip you might mean?

Besides the "Prince Elijah", which I thought stunning (in all its tints), I sort of melted over what she identified as her first 'Frolijah', which looks like FotR Frodo wearing some cute little white small clothes. She used one of my favourite Frodo faces, from that GREAT set of high-resolution series of publicity stills taken with Ian McKellen, as Frodo and Gandalf (see icon).

[mews1945.livejournal.com]

That's the manip I meant. Somehow that one really was intriguing to me. The Prince manip is wonderful too. And the first Frolijah is lovely too. She does have some really lovely manips.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

I actually read an old het story that Igraine wrote once (one of my favourite authors of Frodo stories, especially erotic ones), which involved the wearing of masks. I found it enthralling and the use of masks worked wonderfully, playing with the idea of the masks people wear emotionally. As a story and as erotica this fic worked beautifully for me.

Perhaps, the idea of masks being worn works for me where the seeing of them being worn does not. Odd, isn't it? I just want to see his face too much, I suppose. :rolleyes:

She does have some really lovely manips.

She certainly does!

[shirebound]

I only feel brave enough to view "Tame" at the moment, but that "Prince Elijah" is astonishing. Incredible.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

Isn't "Prince Elijah" FABULOUS?????

It makes me wish all the more he would do another film in which he could wear a great costume and wig. I know a lot of his fans like him no matter what he is sporting. But I dislike most of his bed head hair-dos, and don't like his shaved look much better. I hate and despise the "Faux-hawk". But, other fans love these looks. I just wish he'd do something to please an old long-hair-loving geezer like me. You don't see me sticking him into paintings featuring bald men, do you?

I also love his beautiful speech as Frodo, which goes out the window when he is playing modern roles.

As for "Tempting," that may be too much for you, Shirebound. Bandwench has put a lot of images in there that I would call "R" for sure - ones with testicles visible, for example. The pictures from which these are made, when they are nude, are not actually involved in a sexual situation, so they have been put into "Tempting" rather than "Torrid." But, they still are posed in ways that clearly were meant to be sexually titillating, even if they aren't highly-rated.

If I post a "Michelangelo's David", in which the statue's genitals are fully on view, I say, "NOT WORK SAFE", because, even if he's a statue, he's fully naked. But, I wouldn't call the piece "NC-17" or even "R", because the image was not meant to be erotic. It's just a man naked. But the source pics used for most of "Tempting", and some of "Tame", are meant to be pin-ups. I think that changes the character of the manips, even if they are not explicit.

So, you may not want to click open "Tempting." However, Bandwench often is quite straight about what you'll see, when it comes to literal presentation. If she says "partial view of boy bits", that means you are going to see some testicle. If she says, "veiled, aroused boy bits" (or somthing like that), it means you will clearly be able to see that the model has an erection, but through underwear or something like that.

In "Torrid," you will see something quite different. If she says, "aroused boy bits," it means there is going to be an erect penis in full view. If she adds, "self-touching", it means the model ir, or appears to be masturbating.

I should imagine the same criteria will apply when she gets her "Het" and "Slash" galleries up (which mean EW will be with a partner).

[shirebound]

But I dislike most of his bed head hair-dos, and don't like his shaved look much better. I hate and despise the "Faux-hawk". But, other fans love these looks. I just wish he'd do something to please an old long-hair-loving geezer like me.

I couldn't agree more!!!!

And thank you for all the information. You manip folks are so incredibly gifted.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

I've seen your picture recently, from your latest fan get-together. You are NOT an old geezer, rather, a petite Young Thing. Yet, you still love the Long Hair of Yore???? *hugs*

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

I just looked at what I wrote, Shirebound.

I sure do talk a lot!

(Did you ever look at the one I made this post for? Really, it is not sleazy. It's quite lovely.)

[shirebound]

I sure do talk a lot!

I love your passion and how wonderfully and fully you communicate. Please don't ever start censoring yourself!

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

Well, I do try and suit what I say to my audience. But ever since I became a mother (18 years ago), I elected to remove obscenities from my speech. I intend to keep that up, although I am able to quote the obscenities of others, for whom this is not an issue, using asterisks, so as not to offend those who don't wish to see the full quote (like putting "x"s on nipples).

I don't censor myself as to topics, however. That is wide-open.

[taerie.livejournal.com]

Not my cup of tea, I fear. Particularly the idea of doing manips of a real person without their permission. It seems like assault. I enjoyed the edited picture you displayed here though of Frodo.. it was very nice and I love the blue theme!
Manips certainly ARE an art form! Anybody who says it isn't can't do it. Sour grapes.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

You might really love this manip, Taerie. The EW stuff, I am sure not.

But the Frodo manip, oh, it's lovely. How different is it, really, if I put film-Frodo's face in a painting, for which a real model posed nude? What Bandwench is doing for this manip is taking the body of a [consenting] model from a nude photograph, putting it in a neutral setting (a non-consenting setting, I suppose), and putting film-Frodo's face in it. How is that different, ethically, from what I did with "Frodo: Before the Fire, After the Bath"?

Now, putting EW's face in porn shots, I agree, is another matter. But, since I really don't think he would care very much, I am not that exercised about it -- even if it really isn't my "thing", simply because EW is not my "thing".

[taerie.livejournal.com]

Hope you don't mind my commenting on this.. I just love to stick my two cents in.. Probably should shut up. LOL!

It IS different. (Well, to me.) Nude full frontal men in paintings and sculpture are to me, art. Before the fire may not be a painting, but it most certainly is art.. and it doesn't stick a dork in your face. Full frontal photos of sexually excited men are.. well, a bit more than just erotica. (I have nothing against that. I like it personally, as long as it doesn't involve children or hurt anybody.) To put some real persons head on a porn photo without their permission has a very good chance of hurting them.( and I think that is a funny way to express affection for a person. Celebrity or not.) If EW ever says he doesn't mind then by all means, anybody who wants to should exploit him sexually and devil take the hindmost. :-D

FRODO on the other hand.. I haven't a leg to stand on morally to object to anything done.. Just not my cup of tea. I am made uncomfortable by imagining Frodo's distress if he saw it. I'm positive he would be less than thrilled over what I do to him with my pencil.. but not really upset. That is, of course, my opinion.. as far as I know, nobody ever asked Tolkien.
I don't object to seeing Frodo in the altogether.. Quite the opposite! The blue manip is,to me, pure art.. at least, the cropped version. This is, of course, only my opinion. I suppose an argument can be made that a well drawn erection is art.. and well.. everybody has their own opinion of what art is anyway.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

The blue manip is,to me, pure art.. at least, the cropped version. This is, of course, only my opinion. I suppose an argument can be made that a well drawn erection is art.. and well.. everybody has their own opinion of what art is anyway.

Oh, perhaps I shouldn't have said Frodo's Person is "partially aroused" (sounds like a beast under the Lonely Mountain), which seems somehow still to imply a full-blown erection. It's simply larger and more perky-looking than a flaccid penis would look. No one else is in the image, and Frodo in the image is not relating to anyone, nor is he touching himself. But, it remains that for the experienced viewer, this is not a "disinterested" bit of male gentialia.

Someone else might have said Frodo was merely very generously endowed in the "phallic department". But, since the manipper corroborates that the member in the image is "somewhat aroused," I feel I am being accurate in saying it is. But, "erection" gives the wrong idea altogether. Which sounds like flagpoles waving around.

Oh, well, I won't argure further. Sorry, Taerie. And I know your argument about the permission factor in using people's images for manips.

And it's not the same as when faces are used for satire. No one asked George Bush about sticking his head onto The Thinker, sitting on a toilet, spewing bombs over Iraq, with a thought bubble coming out of his head, saying, "Duh...", but I suppose they really ought to have. Yet no one but his most fevent supporters complains about this usage. The issue doesn't seem to be so much "using his image", as it is "what his image is used for." Which is a very legitimate point. To make fun of Bush mishandling a public policy, like the war in Iraq, is received much differently than making fun of Bush in his private life.

But, sticking a celebrity's head on a porn shot -- perhaps, especially because it is so convincingly done -- is another matter. Again, though, I think one should bear in mind the targeted audience of the manip. The manip made as political satire is made to be seen by the nation. The porn manip of a fan is made to be seen by a circle of fellow-fans.

It is a more complicated question than I first thought. Myself, I wouldn't make such manips. But, am I not doing something similar? -- using film-Frodo's face to make my own less highly-rated manips? And do I not use his image painted in words (as do hundreds of other fanfic writers), in my fanfic, in which the protagonists do far more, sexually, than what Frodo does in my manip (which is to just sit there, looking lusciously contemplative)?

If I make a manip using his face showing him riding in the cart to Hobbiton, or talking to Ted Sandyman in the Green Dragon, no one would complain. But if I made a manip using his face showing him in bed with another hobbit, there would be a lot of complaining -- about how I "used his image".

What about the gazillion fan artists who use film-Frodo's face for their illustrations? What is the travesty: that they use his face, or that they use his face to put in illustrations depicting sex scenes? So it's ok to use his face to show him being treated to mushrooms, or looking mournful in Ithilien, or being tortured in Cirith Ungol, but not making love?

I am not taking you to task, Tairie, but merely thinking out loud. Your point is extremely sound, or I wouldn't be thinking about it and talking about it. Obviously, I am still working this through, and (unfortunately) letting you be a sounding board without consulting you.

But, think about it: when I make ANY manip of Frodo (no matter what the rating) I am borrowing the face of the celebrity who played him. True, I only care about the role he played, but he did create it -- with HIS face and HIS body.

What gives me the right to do that, even if what I create is considered generally inoffensive?

Is it wrong to borrow a celebrity's face, as such -- or is only wrong to borrow the celebrity's face only when used for certain, unacceptable purposes - like putting it into erotic settings? It is quite a different issue, if so. People need to decide, then, what are and what are not acceptable purposes.

[taerie.livejournal.com]

I agree with this.. and I have thought about it too.. (Obviously, since for the last several years in my imagination Frodo seems to have inherited a face similar to Mr.Wood. (Not exactly! But at one time, EW could be made up and magically BE Frodo for me by virtue of his talent.)
I guess the rule I use is 'Do unto others.' No way would I mind being made into art of any sort I consider art.. but also No way would I enjoy extreme liberties of the sort sometimes taken. It's just rude and to my mind, disrespectful to treat people that way.. both to that person and to yourself.
(Satire? That's different.. And my personal approval level of being mean to Bush is far different from my approval level of mean to EW LOL!)
Would I fight to the death for anybody's right to DO that on the net? Oh yes. Do I have to approve? Heck no.. and I vote with my feet.
(However, after what you said above I went and had a look at the pic. I'm glad I did.. It is utterly beautiful.. I wish it did not include the overly happy bit.. I would save it and enjoy it if it wasn't just a wee bit too in your face.
I actually have by happenstance, an experience that sort of gives me a perspective. When I was younger, I used to enter costume competitions at San Diego conventions.. (All my friends did so I got into it.) One year, I discovered to my surprise a bit of art someone had done from photo of me in a scanty costume I had done another year with a group portraying a character from a book, entered in the Art show. I was supposed to be that character. It had me far nakeder than I would ever have actually been in public.. but it was very nice and although it was weird to see myself like that in an art show, I thought it was nice, appropriate for the character, and I was flattered and enjoyed it. Another time someone else took a photo of me when I was unaware and I was bending over and it was obviously done to look down my shirt. It was far less revealing but it ticked me right off when I saw it.. and does to this day.
This is perhaps colouring my opinion of all this. (Ya think?):-)

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

(A two-parter! Sorry!)

This is perhaps colouring my opinion of all this. (Ya think?):-)

Well, are we talking about using Frodo's image in art, now, or Elijah's (as Elijah)? If we are talking about Frodo's image, then we are talking about using the image of a fictional character (even though he was played by an actor, his image now has taken on a life of its own, separate from EW, just as images of the Cowardly Lion have a life of their own apart from Bert Lahr, who played him). I think that is comparable to your story of how your image, in costume as a character, was used by an artist, who then made a picture from your portrayal (which included making the costume scantier). Once you were "in character," it wasn't you being portrayed, but the character. You were just enacting, or modelling the character which the artist worked from.

When you were photographed surreptitiously but intentionally, with the camera looking down your dress, that was different. The photographer was taking advantage of you for a bit of voyeurism for his own benefit. But if he were taking group shots, and you just happened to lean over when he clicked the big group shot, that would not be his fault.

Last week a soccer player was on the field in Germany and his penis flipped out of his shorts. It was an accident, and the TV cameras never intended to record it as part of the game coverage. But, as you might imagine, that clip was all over the internet. (I got it in an email from a relative.) That "shorts malfunction" appeared everywhere, not just as the clip that appeared on TV, but in slo-mo and in screencaps, all to better examine it. Well, the player didn't seem upset, and a good laugh was had by all. But, if the player had been angry or mortified, it would have been very different. It would have seemed like taking gross advantage of him to show it all over the place -- even though it had happened right on TV, in a public venue.

When that photographer took your picture it was very different. You could say he "stole" the image from you, using it to give a false impression of you; like snipping off a lock of your hair and going around telling people you gave it to him. Perhaps you are seeing what happens to EW when people use his image for manips as that sort of thing: stealing his image and using it in ways that give a false impression of him, and mortifying or angering him.

But what if Elijah experiences the manip thing like that soccer player when he fell out of his shorts on camera? EW's penis isn't hanging out, true, but his face is, all the time, publicly available, which his fans think is as hawt as anything he's got in his jeans. What if, when people take that face -- which has all the power of a shorts malfunction to those who swoon for him -- and do what is the equivalent of the folks who took the clip of the unleashed soccer-guy's penis? Through hot fics and manips, they do something comparable to when folks took the clip of the soccer guy's exposed gentials and featured it in slo-mo, and screencaps, all to pore over it the better. Maybe when EW sees these stuff like these hot manips or stories (and, by now, he must know there's a ton of them), his attitude is more like that soccer player's. That is, he doesn't think it's that big a deal, and can wave it off. He's a public person; he's on view, and his popularity is great with women who respond heavily to his looks. Women who, if he can't manage to have a shorts malfunction (like the soccer player), will be happy to provide him with one.

(cont'd.)

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

(Cont'd...)

I sound like I'm being the champion of Filthy EW Manips, Taerie, and I really am not. I'm just saying that I don't see the use of EW's image in manips or fanfics -- even as Frodo -- as that black-and-white a thing.

As a film actor, a star to some degree, he's a public person who makes it on the devotion of his fans; in a sense, he belongs to them (in a way you NEVER belonged to that photographer, as a private person). I'm sure he knows fans are fooling around with his pictures and his persona, much in the same way naughty children might get out their dolls and let them stand in for their favourite actors or boys they like, then giggle and swoon while they have the dolls do interesting amorous activities together.

I don't think EW probably hears about fans making him into Long Dong Silver (or a pharoah's concubine or a rent boy or the lover of half of Middle-earth), and thinks of it as willful malice, disregard or character assasination. He probably saves his anger and irritation for things like professional photographers who chase celebrities into toilets to catch them with their pants down, so they can sell the images to tabloids or embarrass them publicly on television reality shows. I think he probably thinks it's sort of silly, but that it is meant in a positive way towards him, however silly or even embarrassing.

Maybe I sound defensive because I, too, feel indicted, having used the image of film Frodo to make my manips and to write my own hot fanfic. If it hadn't been for film Frodo, I wouldn't be writing at all.

Isn't that using EW's image without his consent? Who's to say EW'd be happy with the way I have used his face?

And, if I feel a little bit indicted for using film-Frodo's image when I write or manip, since he functions as my Eros and Muse, I feel a lot more indicted for using Tolkien's Frodo for my purposes. EW might indulge my creative use of his face and performance, but I think Tolkien would be grieved to see what I have done. But that hasn't stopped me, has it? So, when I start talking about not respecting the images created by or belonging to others, I only have to look in my mirror.

Oh, it's late and I'm being boring. But thanks for listening, Taerie!

[taerie.livejournal.com]

Heck no.. you aren't being boring! I like this kind of gentle debate. If anybody's bored they don't have to read it.
I told the story just to illustrate my own reaction to that sort of thing and to explain my probably extremist dislike of it. I agree that EW has WAY worse concerns and annoyances than the rudeness of people who treat him impolitely by using his image to make porno. That is probably not even a blip on his radar screen of annoying.
I think you might be right that he himself, if pinned down on his opinion of manufactured porno of his face, would probably laugh it off like the soccer player did the pic. One reason is that from the little I have been paying attention.. it seems to me that, being young and hungry for acceptance, he tries to be the good sport a bit too hard and puts up with stuff that he probably shouldn't.. and another is that like the soccer player.. a guy sort of has to act the stud and the good sport and laugh off nasty and embarrassing things. It's one of those cultural pressures that men get stuck with.. whereas I was, as a woman, actually expected to get angry over it. (Come to think of it.. I did not react at all, publicly.. I just shrugged even though I was angry. I instantly felt to do anything else would just give the perpetrator satisfaction.. And maybe there is some sort of 'pronking' instinctive response. An antelope running with a herd will do showy leaps (pronking) if a lion is looking.. so the lion will think he is strong and not bother with him.. and choose another victim.)
(The people doing close-ups of the players accidental exposure are more like hyenas than lions in my opinion but that is neither here nor there.)
I feel, Mechtild, that you would have to be overly introspective to feel indicted for using film-Frodo's image for what you do.. but I can't condemn you for that.. I do the same sort of soul searching, self questioning thing.. valid or not. What you say is very true about film actors knowingly lending their images for such things. I also know (having hung out in the past around celebrities) that they usually feel that there is no such thing as BAD attention.. They love all attention.. or they had better if they choose that profession.. (not that you could say that EW actually chose his more than it happened to him.) So you are probably also right about him even LIKING it as alien as that seems to my own mental thought processes.
To me it is still a black and white thing though.. cause apart from wether or not he likes it.. it's still rude.. still abusive. To me, common courtesy demands that I not make publicly even just POSSIBLY embarrassing images of a real person. (EW) At least till he SAYS it's okay.) Frodo.. even film Frodo is a far more grey area as is worrying about wether a dead author would fret over what you do with his character for fun. I care a lot about Frodo and his imaginary feelings so I wouldn't do it but I can't say it's wrong to do it.. and indeed I enjoy it sometimes when it is personally entertaining for other people to do it.. but there is always a little feeling of guilt that goes with it that is silly cause he isn't real.
(Okay.. so I'm weird.. we knew that already! ;-)

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

Taerie, you've highlighted some great points, again, especially about matters of taste and consent, and about the pressure to act like a good sport, even when one doesn't feel like it.

I have to go do things, then go to work, but I have heard from the artist reports of actual remarks of EW's, stating clearly that he really doesn't mind his image being used by fans for their naughty fun. If I find a quote I'll post it.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

Aww, your poem provided a sweet little inset for that scene, White Gull. No wonder Frodo was wool-gathering.

I often have wondered if Goldberry ("River daughter") was Tolkien's version of a water nymph, whom Tom Bombadil had "captured." (You probably already heard me say this; weren't you on that TORc reading thread at that time?)

All that said, WOW, Frodo: A study in blue, is stunning.

I think so, too. I hope you went over to Bandwench's LJ and told her so. You know as well as I, appreciative feedback is the fan artist's reward.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

One can never go wrong saying anything positive to someone whose work you appreciate. When people comment on my manips or screencaps or fic, I always love it, whatever they say. Don't you?

I don't know her, either, but, reading through most of her LJ yesterday, just because I was interested, I thought she sounded like a smart, witty, deeply feeling and warm-hearted person.

[frodosweetstuff.livejournal.com]

Awwww, I think Bandwench is soooooo incredibly talented (and a lovely and funny lady to boot). Love her manips, no matter what rating. :)

As for manipping ficitonal characters and real persons - I have done both and I do not feel bad about it. It was done out of love for the characters/persons so I don't think anyone should take offence - especially since it was made clear the pics were manips. As for EW, he did talk about the slashy manips, especially Theban Band, on a TV chat show and obviously did not mind. :) I doubt he searches the net for slashy or het pics of himself but I also doubt he minds much that they are there.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

[sorry - left out a sentence; will fix]

He does seem like a pretty easy-going person, Frodosweetstuff. At first I thought it was just a matter of him being a good sport in front of others, which is obviously a key facet of his personality from everything I've heard and read. But I am betting he really doesn't care very much. As an actor, too, and as Tairie said above, as an actor, probably any attention and publicity is better than none.

As to manips of celebs, again, I think it matters what the intended audience is, but also the content. I obviously am not flying into the boughs about seeing Frodo presented in [not very explicit] erotic photomanips or [very expliciit] stories, although the tone of some repells me, while others please me. It's a matter of taste. I haven't paid much attention to the EW ones, since he's not my swoon, but it did trouble me - what EW might feel about it. But, after Bandwench, told me of EW's reported remarks that he really doesn't mind fans fooling around with his picture for erotic fan use, I'd have to say that it's an acceptable pastime, even if it is not for everyone.

That makes it sound as though I'd be willing to let fans make anything out of his picture, but that would not be true. I would have a fit if I saw the images of EW (or Frodo) to show dead or tortured for pleasure. I would hate to see a manip (or a real pic) of him having sex with an animal, or the handle of a bullwhip up his rectum, like Robert Mapplethorpe's controversial self-portrait. Yet someone likes that sort of stuff, and someone would call it appreciative fan art. What happens to my, "it's just a manip; they can do whatever they want" position when I think of such things? I could say, "Well, you don't have to look at it," and I wouldn't. But I would hate the thought of it even being made.

So. When I present to myself a scenario that I personally would hate, my principle is shown as faulty. So it can't just be a matter of what any and every niche group of people thinks is "ok". It really is a more complex issue than I had thought when I first started to think about this.

I suppose the issue involves not just subject consent (actual or implied), but that they not be presented in material that would make them (and others) be revolted. That's tricky, though. For one fan, showing him in a bathtub masturbating is revolting, for someone else it is erotica. For both of these sets of people, however, showing him tied, up being dismembered would be revolting. (For Kevin in Sin City it might be entertainment, LOL). Does what is and what is not "over the top" dependent on a majority vote, then?

I still haven't figured it out *opens new hot Frodo story to read*.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

I don't know what happened to the bottom of my post, Frodosweetstuff, it still wasn't there - too long?

Anyway, I didn't mean to sound all lecturey. Thanks for stopping by!

That manip of Bandwench's is sublime, isn't it? She is so talented. And an artist. I still keep staring at it.

By the way, is your posting an indication that you are still feeling fit and enjoying life with little Froda (and little Frodo!)?

[frodosweetstuff.livejournal.com]

Yup, RL is under control and everything is going fine. :) Both hobbitlings are healthy and happy (and know when to nap so that mommy can get online again...) - what more can we want?

*hugs*

[bagma.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the link and the interesting discussion! I didn't know bandwench manips (I only saw the one in mews1945's LJ, and I found it lovely).
I was ill-at-ease about manips for months, until I realize it's only a visual form of fanfiction, after all. Images replace words. If I could read or write about Frodo's or Elijah's genitals, I can look at them, especially since they are all fictitious (the bits, I mean), both in image and in words. Of course, we use Elijah's face; but it's clear from the beginning we don't describe the real Elijah. What we are picturing is our fantasy of him, and we are free to do that and share the product of our imagination with others, IMO.

I don't like every manip: some are too crude for my taste, I guess, or just too bad. I need a good manip: I want to forget it's not real while I'm looking at it, like I want to believe the story is true while I'm reading a fic:).

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

Bagma, I think you speak well and speak for many when you write,

Of course, we use Elijah's face; but it's clear from the beginning we don't describe the real Elijah. What we are picturing is our fantasy of him, and we are free to do that and share the product of our imagination with others, IMO.

But I like to know that the real actor is not outraged by it. I like him, I'm grateful to him, so I wouldn't want to make him miserable. But, it sounds as though this doesn't make him miserable, per se, even if it might cause him to roll his eyes and wonder what we see in him and the character he created.

I agreed with this wholeheartedly:

I need a good manip: I want to forget it's not real while I'm looking at it, like I want to believe the story is true while I'm reading a fic:).

I love that in a fanfic, that the author can make me suspend disbelief and believe her world (at least while I am reading it!), or believe her manip in so far as it shows good technique and presents an image of the character I can respond to and recognize (and I think we can call Elijah Wood a character in so far as he appears in fics and manips, since he is merely a model for the role created by fans).

[taerie.livejournal.com]

What was said above is very true. We are free to fantasize all we want about Mr.Wood.. till the cows come home or the king returns.. We are free to create sexy images of him and write stories and make and wear exciting underwear with his name written across the back. We have that right and the right to share those fantasies with a group of friends. Where I part company is publicly posting something like that about an actual living, breathing person. Frodo is one thing.. even cultural icon Frodo with EW's face patented on the front.. But Mr. Elijah Wood is quite another.
I don't feel that celebrities give up their basic personal rights just because they are in a certain line of work. Mr Wood is definitely young.. he is likely very hurtable.. despite his bold front. He may say he doesn't mind but what choice has he really? People are gonna do what they are gonna do and he might as well put a good face on it. He's an adult though.. and responsible for what he says.
It's a personal choice, no question.. and this is no sacrifice for me so I have no real right to express an opinion. it really doesn't impact ME one way or another since as you said.. He's not my swoon. But as someone who is old enough to be his mom, I worry about him sometimes. I don't claim to know him.. Heck.. you ALL probably know his personality way more than I because I simply don't pay attention.. but a little corner of my mind still worries. My personal nightmare is him ending up like River Phoenix.. A good, sensitive young man in an especially wild world and who knows who he hangs out with.. It could happen and I wouldn't want to take the chance of adding any stress to someone like that. Thats how I feel.. but I also know that it is as certain as death and taxes that stuff like that will be publicly posted.. and that he will see at least the stuff that is shoved under his nose. People are gonna do what they are gonna do.. but right and just? No. I don't think so. It is far from a perfect world and we all have to live in it.. but I try not to take any chance of hurting somebody.. and I am pretty sure that this probably isn't something that does him any GOOD. He gets enough attention and swooning to do a lot of eye rolling without that, I think.
By all means have fun.. but try to remember that EW may not make a distinction between the pretend EW and his very own self. You may be able to put on the skin of another person but not able to take your own skin off.

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

By all means have fun.. but try to remember that EW may not make a distinction between the pretend EW and his very own self. You may be able to put on the skin of another person but not able to take your own skin off.

Sorry I took a while to get back, Taerie. I was finishing up a chapter to post.

Naturally, since there is so much out there, I hope you are wrong about EW turning out like River Phoenix, no matter how much stuff is out there. I really am not worried about him becoming unhinged over the sexy stuff, but if people started putting his head on deviants, or making manips of him and his girlfriend, that really might provoke some "no more Mr. Nice Guy" response from the cheerfully-behaved person he projects to the public.

I think you speak for many, Taerie, who simply aren't saying anything in this string of comments, and are cheering you on as the one who speaks for them.

It is certainly a questionable practice; one which, obviously I am willing to look at and enjoy the art of, especially as a fellow-manipper and writer of fic, although mine is about a fictional character. If fans did this for money, to make a profit off EW's face and persona, I am sure the lawsuits would not be long in coming.

But, for now, he maintains a "what the heck?" public attitude. But, you are right, that public behaviour may mask a much less favourable reaction, since he is under pressure to put a good face on things and be a sport. What he really feels, perhaps he will reveal one day. It is always clear that he doesn't want to hurt his fans, and I don't think it's just because they'll stop paying to see his films or something. It's because he really appreciates their devotion and support. If some of us fans show our admiration and devotion in some pretty odd ways, he seems able to live with that.

Whether one does or doesn't choose to write/draw or read/look at sexual material based on the image of EW (or any other star) remains a personal choice. I think yours is the majority one. It is mine, on a deep level, since I am sort of "sneaking peeks" at the EW material. But I am not sneaking peaks of things like the Frodo manip above. I think it's gorgeous, not porny, and something to be proud of.

I just hope you can remember the artist does both sorts of work, and to express appreciation for the sort of work you do like.

Phooey, but I must go to work! It's been a great discussion, Taerie. I think you have helped me -- and others reading silently -- a lot on this issue, getting ideas and feelings "out on the table."

[taerie.livejournal.com]

Thanks Mechtild for putting up with my blithering.. I get carried away when I feel strongly about something.. I don't expect anybody to pay me any mind really.
For the record, I do NOT think that he will end up like River Phoenix.. The possibility just makes me uneasy that's all. It would hurt a lot if he did. I hope YOU are right and he can live with it. He obviously has to. He seems like a sweet, joyful fellow and we all agree that he is talented and beautiful.. but just cause he is a movie star doesn't mean he is exempt from doing his time as a goofy kid that we all do. (And I think hobbits have the right of it for big people too. I certainly wasn't an adult in my head till thirty.. and anybody who knows me would probably add that they are still waiting.LOL!)

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

I certainly wasn't an adult in my head till thirty.. and anybody who knows me would probably add that they are still waiting.LOL!)

ME, TOO! I still haven't grown up, it seems. Maybe when I'm 80. I've said it before, but it still boggles my mind that EW acted Frodo between the ages of 18 and 20 or 21. BOGGLES.

(Hi, just got back from work).

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

P.S. Taerie, I wrote a bit more below about out our discussion as one worth having, to Este.

[este-tangletoes.livejournal.com]

I’m just back from telling Bandwench how much I liked the Frodo manip.

You wrote above regarding your Frodo Art Travesty ‘Before the Fire…’

I still am of two minds about it.

I have always thought this particular piece of art very tastefully done. There is only a hint of what else may be seen, and Frodo is deep in thought not looking at the viewer.

I would not have liked it with real-life EW’s face because that is not my thing (each to his own). Give me Frodo, make-up, wig and all and I’m there 111%.

I hope Mr Wood continues to be unconcerned about the manips. I know I’m being naive but I pray no one will overstep the line. Unfortunately there are some very loathsome personages out there. I love and appreciate what he did with film Frodo. *Please God protect him*

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

Ah, Este, what a sweetie you are (re: Before the Fire). Oh, I have come to think that is a very nice manip; it only worried me because I had made it from a porny pin-up. If I had found the same body in a painting, I wouldn't have been a bit concerned. I just kept wondering whose body that was, and whether I ought to credit him, LOL!

I am sure EW's fans mean him well, however they express it, and I think he knows that. Almost never have I read LJ's in which fans bore ill will toward EW, although some have been pretty nasty towards his girl friends. Still, I don't get the impression they'd actually stalk either of them or send hate mail to his house. The majority I've posts I've read every where, in fact, have been notably protective. I suppose it seems contraditory that a fan could be protective of his happiness, yet create very intimate things based on his personal life, but many of us are full of paradoxical feelings and inclinations.

All in all, I am very happy I posted Bandwench's manip, a) because it's gorgeous and I wanted more people to be able to see it and b) because perhaps it has been a good thing to talk about these concerns in print. Taerie's been great presenting one side of the argument, and I have perhaps overstated my own position, trying to represent the more liberal view (which Bagma stepped in and stated much better! Thanks, Bagma!).

I told Taerie here, and I told Bandwench in an email, there are probably other fans who have been reading this thread but not speaking, for whom the discussion has been helpful, simply to help them get clearer about what they themselves feel and think on this issue. :)

[mechtild.livejournal.com]

I forgot to say that's GREAT that you said something to Bandwench. I wanted her to know how many of us looooved that manip. Not too racy, just Beautiful Nude Frodo. *sigh*